Kotmair v. Brown
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SAPF Fiduciary John B. Kotmair debates veteran ex-IRS tax attorney Alvin Brown on Baltimore talk radio |
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SAPF Fiduciary John B. Kotmair debates veteran ex-IRS tax attorney Alvin Brown on Baltimore talk radio |
On March 23, 1999, CNN Financial Networks published a "warning" regarding the Save-A-Patriot "Internet tax bandits." This report was filled with a number of wildly inaccurate statements and smears. Featured in the report was a former IRS tax attorney by the name of Alvin Brown who stated that SAPF was selling "buckets of poison" to the public. A copy of the report was faxed to WCBM, a talk radio station located in Baltimore, Maryland, which resulted in this program being aired. (Since SAPF is accustomed to being vilified by the establishment media, the report was largely ignored here when it first appeared.)
This program was originally broadcast on WCBM on July 19, 1999. It opens with the talk show host, Les Kinsolving, reading the CNN report in its entirety. The CNN report is not reproduced here, but many of its inaccuracies are addressed by Mr. Kotmair during the show.
It should also be mentioned that Mr. Kinsolving has for some time been an outspoken critic of Save-A-Patriot, commonly referring to the Fellowship as "those crazies in Westminster" and "tax bandits." His apparent intent with this radio program was to publicly humiliate SAPF fiduciary John Kotmair with the assistance of his "IRS expert." (What was the actual outcome? You be the judge!) In fact, Kotmair was to be publicly facing not one but two adversaries. (Much like the situation in the courts where judges frequently advance the prosecutor's agenda rather than remaining neutral arbiters.) The show received a lot of advance publicity and enjoyed a large listening audience.
The following transcription has been made as accurately as possible, using a tape of the original WCBM radio broadcast. There are times during which more than one person is talking at once and it was not possible to determine what was said for brief periods. These are noted in the text. Where possible the tone of the conversation is also indicated. To the best of our knowledge there are no substantive errors in the following text.
KINSOLVING: Since it [the CNN report] is strongly critical of Save-A-Patriot and similar organizations, I do believe that in fairness our guest John Kotmair should have first rebuttal for five minutes, then we'll go to our other guest, attorney Alvin Brown. Mr. Kotmair, welcome to WCBM and the floor is yours.
KOTMAIR: Well, thank you Les, it's a pleasure to be with you.
KINSOLVING: Thank you.
KOTMAIR: Well, first of all, I'll give you a little bit of history. I became interested in the federal tax code back in 1968. I started studying it very seriously in 1973. In 1984, I founded the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship. For 15 years now we've been teaching the Constitution and the tax code itself; and the regs and the manual. In 1993 we wrote to the Commissioner of Internal Revenue... only before I get into that, might I say that...
KINSOLVING: You can say anything you want, this is uninhibited radio.
KOTMAIR: OK. ...that the CNN misquotes us like everybody else. They say that we contend that the laws are "unconstitutional." That's not so at all. The laws are very constitutional, as written. And we have never said that the tax law is "unconstitutional." If we were saying that the tax law was "unconstitutional" and people should not obey the law because of that, then the first one that did that by our say-so with us, we'd both be charged with conspiracy and the Fellowship wouldn't be 15 years old. That's nonsense, that's ludicrous.
Getting back to 1993, we wrote the Commissioner of Internal Revenue, and asked if the Commissioner or a delegate of the Commissioner would come to the Fellowship, and show us where we were wrong in the law. We published this in the newspaper, and we received no response. In October of the same year we wrote again and asked the Commissioner if she would (at that time she was just appointed), if she would come or have her delegate come to the Fellowship and show us if we're wrong in the way we're teaching the law and publishing about the law. After that we received a letter from the chief of the CID [Criminal Investigation Division] in Washington, DC saying that the Commissioner was declining our invitation, and that he was turning the whole affair over to CID in Baltimore.
Well, on December the 10th, 1993, the IRS raided our Fellowship. Their Affidavit of Probable Cause was charging me criminally as follows, they made four allegations. The first allegation was that I had no Employer Identification Number, and that I was not withholding taxes from the employees here. The second allegation was that people come and go. The third allegation was, there quite possibly could be contraband on the premises. And the fourth allegation was that we could not exist without being regulated by government.
Well, there was six hearings in the Federal court in Baltimore. The first thing we argued back to the court, we said that if the government shows us a law that requires me to obtain an Employer Identification Number and withhold from the employees, I'll do so. No problem. Well the government couldn't do that. So, after the fifth hearing the U.S. Attorney, Harvey Eisenberg, came to me and said that he was declining the IRS' criminal investigation on me. And then of course it was ludicrous to argue "people come and go," so the next thing was this contraband but they couldn't find none in the raid, there is no contraband. So the last thing they had to argue was we couldn't exist without being regulated. Well, we argued that on the sixth hearing. And finally the judge, Garbis 3, entered his ruling, which favored us and said of course, it's a free society, they can exist without being regulated.
So the IRS had to return all the property, all their efforts were for naught. We still don't have an EIN number, we still don't hold from our employees. The Department of Justice appealed the judge's decision in the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, and two months or three months later they moved with a motion to the court to dismiss their own appeal with prejudice. And it all ended. And they haven't bothered us since.
Now there's other discrepancies with the article from CNN. In fact, believe it or not, today is the first day I've read it. We're so used to being smeared usually some of the staff here handle this, Bill Huff who was then editor of the newsletter handled this. Another discrepancy is we charged 35 instead of 45. The other discrepancy is, it indicates or infers that he found us on the Internet in 1992, we were not on the Internet, we didn't have a web page in 1992. And it's impossible to do 10 letters a month and they're not even letters that we do. We appeal, request information, and we use the rules that are found in the Internal Revenue Service Regulations at Part 601. Which, by the way, very clearly say in Part 601, section 601-102 that employment taxes cannot be appealed to the tax court, because the tax court has no jurisdiction, there is no appeal for employment taxes for a Notice of Deficiency.
KINSOLVING: John, can you wind it up in another minute, I don't...
KOTMAIR: Sure...I'll be glad to talk to Mr. Brown, I'd love to talk to Mr. Brown.
KINSOLVING: OK, all right, you've got one more minute because I think you're about at five, but go ahead. One more minute.
KOTMAIR: Bring Mr. Brown on, I'd be glad to hear him.
KINSOLVING: OK, let's go to Alvin Brown, welcome to WCBM.
BROWN: Les, thank you very much, and I think you've done a good job, I think you're raising an extremely important issue, uh, because...
KINSOLVING: Can you, Alvin, can you speak up a little bit?
BROWN: ...yeah, I'm sorry...
KINSOLVING: That's good, that's great!
BROWN: I normally talk a little softly, I'll just have to, uh, uh, make a little mental adjustment. Um, I just want to introduce myself briefly. I had, uh, uh, a 30-year career with the office of the, uh, Chief Counsel of the Internal Revenue Service. For many years I had the authority to sign off for the IRS. So, uh, if the District Director of some, you know, had a legal issue and needed to know what the answer was, my office of attorneys working for me would, uh, would give that opinion and the District Director would rely on it, ruling letters and things like that. So, I had a very high level pure legal interpretative function with the Service, and, uh, also worked on capitol hill as a tax lobbyist, so I'm familiar with, uh, uh, legislation, and what Congress has in mind when they write tax legislation. And, uh, now... The issues you raised in that piece, it's something that came to my attention by I would say hundreds of phone calls I've gotten because people have found me on the Internet and seen my IRS credentials and have asked me various questions. I help many of them with, uh, collection issues, like, you know, get their taxes reduced in different ways, things like that, that let them deal with the tax burden or eliminate it after it's imposed.
What you heard initially in the first five minutes is really not the issue that you started with, uh, he was drawing you off into unrelated issues not germane to the topic that you're discussing, you raised. Uh, the people that, a lot of the people that call me have been through the system. They paid a lot of money relying on their right not to pay their, um, federal income tax. The paid a lot of money for advice on, um, not filing. So, a lot of people in the United States don't file and they don't pay their income taxes. Um, and then the IRS jumps on them, they take their homes, they take their businesses, they just literally clean them out, and they leave them with a huge debt that they can carry for the rest of their lives. They literally can destroy families, take everything they have, because the IRS has the right to seize property and levy income. Um, uh, you can work your whole life collecting income, collecting property, and it can be taken away from you in minutes through this advice.
Um, I, I get very steamed on this subject because people profit for selling this information to Americans. Now, I read all of the cases, that come out. I read the cases that decide these issues. I would say there are hundreds of, um, protester-type issues that are raised in the courts. The courts deal with this issue constantly. I don't know of any cases they win. I mean, I read these cases, I read current cases. Um, I started posting some of these cases on my web page. I don't go back through all of them, there's zillions of them, but...
KINSOLVING: Alvin, let me, I don't want to in any way to inhibit you either, this is uninhibited radio. But Mr. Kotmair said that he had won a case against the IRS. Do you recall that?
BROWN: Yes, you weren't paying attention to what he was saying. Now...
KINSOLVING: Well, I was trying... (laughter)
BROWN: The issue was not whether he was paying his federal income tax, his reporting his income from his business. It wasn't a specific individual fraud issue. So don't get led down the path talking about...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
BROWN: ...they did a raid on him, they're trying to find something because he's selling this poison to Americans and they're looking for something, it was probably a fishing expedition, um, and they didn't come up with anything in his individual case. But, he didn't tell you that he wasn't, uh, filing his income tax returns, um, with income that he is receiving, um...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
KINSOLVING: All right, Alvin, uh....
BROWN: I mean, he was not charged with specific fraud.
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
KINSOLVING: OK, now listen, I want to know, is there anything else you want in your opener or can we just go back and forth? Alvin, do you need a little bit more... I don't want to cut you short...
BROWN: Let me just say this because I...
KINSOLVING: All right, and then we can take a break, then we'll go back and forth.
BROWN: ...I have an audience that -- of course, you can do that, and I can be interrupted, but, um, I agree with your initial comment that there are lots of, uh, Americans who don't file and who don't pay their full income tax. There's a lot of people who can't afford it, you know, businesses go sour and they use federal tax money to pay their electric utility bills. There are a lot of people out there. But I just want to let everybody know that there is very strong tax policy not to prosecute, not to bring a criminal charge against anyone who voluntarily comes in and files their income tax return. And Congress has written law to abate their tax liability if they can't afford to pay it. I deal with a lot of that, uh, to help the people who have already been devastated by this misinformation. Um, I just want to make two solid points here, because this is the bottom line...
KINSOLVING: All right, then we'll break; then we'll break and we'll come back and we'll mix it up.
BROWN: OK, the bottom line is they don't win these cases, because I read them. The other thing is when they tangle with the IRS, the IRS wins. I don't know any situations...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
BROWN: ...any situations where the IRS loses on these collection issues after there is an assessment.
KINSOLVING: OK, we're going to take a break, but we'll be right back...
KINSOLVING: Our guests, John Kotmair who is the head of the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship of Westminster, and Mr. Alvin Brown who is formerly with the IRS. Now it is John Kotmair's time. John, he referred to, uh, what you're producing and distributing as "poison."
KOTMAIR: (laughingly) Yeah, I heard him. You know, he don't have to go talking about filing returns. The affidavit of probable cause that the special agent filed with the Federal District Court to obtain the warrant stated in there that I hadn't filed returns since '72. Well, they were one year off, it was '73. I still haven't filed any. The director of the service center in Ogden, Utah, Deborah Decker, started writing to our members intimating or inferring that I was filing returns secretly. So I wrote her and called her down on that. She had to stop that, because if that's so then the special agent committed perjury, didn't he? I mean that's ludicrous, we don't want to hear that. Ask Mr. Brown why I'm not withholding and don't have an EIN number.
KINSOLVING: You ask him. All right, Mr. Brown, you're up.
KOTMAIR: Tell me Mr. Brown, why don't I have an EIN number? Do you know the requirement to have an EIN number?
BROWN: Um... I... You know, I... I don't understand why we're talking about your EIN number...
KOTMAIR: (garbled) Because... I'm not... The tax here...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Hold on! Wait a minute, wait a minute, let him answer!
BROWN: Wait a minute, let me, let me have a few sentences...
KINSOLVING: Let him answer, John, hold on...
KOTMAIR: Go ahead!
BROWN: Um, I get calls for representation all the time, constantly, from people who have been assessed and the IRS is on their backs trying to collect. These are all people who have bought through the system. The court cases require um, uh, underscore the fact that you, that people, uh, have to pay the federal income tax. Congress has every year legislates amendments to the Internal Revenue Code about changes in the tax, uh, rates or structure or other modifications of the Internal Revenue Code. The courts all, um, endorse the taxation of the United States, um, citizens. Whether or not, uh, you have filed a tax return is a different issue, and I don't know the facts because...
KOTMAIR: All right, well let's...
BROWN: ...if you're not reporting, if you're not showing your income or source of income you don't have to pay any tax. If you're not, if you're not showing $600 in income...
KOTMAIR: Mr. Brown...
BROWN: ...uh, and you're getting money under the table, I don't know what you're doing...
KOTMAIR: There's no money "under..."
BROWN: ...If your income is minor, then you don't have to file returns, otherwise you do have to file.
KOTMAIR: Mr. Brown? You spoke of the Code. Can I ask you some questions about the Code? You're a tax attorney...
BROWN: Now wait a minute! What, what...
KOTMAIR: Can I ask you some questions about the Code? ...
BROWN: No! ...
KOTMAIR: ...you're a tax attorney. How many subtitles are there in the Internal Revenue Code, Mr. Brown?...
BROWN: ...because there are thousands and thousands of issues that have been...
KOTMAIR: ...How many subtitles are there? Let's see how much you know about...
BROWN: ...you know, it's... (inaudible)
KOTMAIR: How many subtitles are there in the tax code, Mr. Brown?
BROWN: (long silence) What difference does it make? Why are we talking about...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
BROWN: How many pages in the Code, I mean why don't you ask me that question?
KOTMAIR: No, well I'm asking, do you know how many subtitles...
BROWN: You, you want to handle this by not talking about the issue.
KOTMAIR: No, that is the issue! The law is the issue!
BROWN: The issue is...
KOTMAIR: How many subtitles are there in the Internal Revenue Code? Do you know?
BROWN: (brief silence, exasperated) Who cares?!
KOTMAIR: WHO CARES?! Oh, you don't care about the law, you don't care about the structure of the law, you just want to talk rhetoric about some court case that's way off, that you're not even referring to, and it doesn't make any sense? ...
BROWN: ...trying to get off the subject and change the air time so we don't focus on...
KOTMAIR: No, no, there are, you know how many there are? There are 11 subtitles...
BROWN: (inaudible, continues in background while Kotmair speaks)
KOTMAIR: ...How many categories of taxation are there in those subtitles?
BROWN: ...that information that you're creamed by the IRS. Why don't you talk about that?
KOTMAIR: No, let's talk about the law itself! And because you're saying you people are subject to it, now let's get down to the law and see if they are. Let's you and I go about this, right now!
BROWN: Now wait a minute! Wait a minute!
KOTMAIR: Wait a minute?! How many, how many...
KINSOLVING: Easy, easy, easy! Relax! Relax, we can hear you. Go ahead.
BROWN: Let me, let me, uh, Les, just one second...
KOTMAIR: (in background, inaudible)
BROWN: ...we did not do what Bill Clinton (inaudible)... You can take any word in the Internal Revenue Code, and you...
KOTMAIR: We're not talking about words, we're talking about the law itself. Let's see when I go to that law right now, let's go to the law...
BROWN: ...but the fact of it is that when they take these, uh, these...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute, wait a minute, John hold on one second, then we'll be back to you. Go ahead, Alvin.
BROWN: No, uh, I mean, uh, oh, you're letting him distract, uh, from...
KOTMAIR: (exasperated) Oh, oh God!...
BROWN: ...the real, the issue -- let me have this -- and the issue is whether or not the, the information that you sell and make money on to Americans, uh, and the advice that you give them wins in the courts.
KOTMAIR: Alvin, what is that information...?
BROWN: Tell me, tell me how many people you have defended in the court system...
KOTMAIR: Alvin, what information do I sell?
BROWN: ...and won in the courts. You can't...
KOTMAIR: Do you know what information I sell, Alvin? What information do I sell?
BROWN: Well I know, uh, I get the calls, don't give me...
KOTMAIR: You might get the calls, now you're talking about what I sell! What do I sell Alvin?
BROWN: ...I don't know about your organization, I just get calls...
KOTMAIR: What do I sell? You don't even know!
BROWN: Of course not. I, I don't know you at all.
KOTMAIR: Well you don't know what I sell either!
BROWN: I get calls from a lot of people who are...
KOTMAIR: What do I sell, Alvin? Let's talk about factual things, not innuendo!
BROWN: ...that information commercially. I mean, I hear this. These are people...
KOTMAIR: Alvin, say...
BROWN: (continues in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: ...say one thing that I sell that you know that misleads the people.
BROWN: I don't know anything about you, so let's stop it there.
KOTMAIR: Well; well then why did you make that remark just a few minutes ago, alleging that I "sell poison to the public?" You don't even know what I sell!
BROWN: (silence)
KINSOLVING: Let me ask, uh...
BROWN: Well, I'll caveat it then...
KINSOLVING: John, John let me...
BROWN: (continues in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Wait, whoa, whoa! Hold on! Hold on! John, let me ask you this: Does the Save-A-Patriot Fellowship accept any money?
KOTMAIR: Of course it does.
KINSOLVING: OK, and what does it accept money for doing?
KOTMAIR: To run the Fellowship, and to pay its employees.
KINSOLVING: Uh-huh. And what do you, what do the employees do? In other words...
KOTMAIR: Well, the employees work for the members.
KINSOLVING: And what do they do for the members?
KOTMAIR: (in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute, whoa, whoa! Hold on! John, what do they do for the members in exchange for this money?
KOTMAIR: I'm going to explain that to you right now.
KINSOLVING: Good.
KOTMAIR: All right. If a member receives, let's say a member receives a determination of deficiency, proposed assessment from the Internal Revenue Service. Well, the rules in Part 601 of the regs say that you do a written protest to that. And we do a written protest of that, based on the law. Which I doubt Mr. Alvin Brown even knows, because I've...
KINSOLVING: You're entitled... You're entitled to deal with this and give legal advice in this?
KOTMAIR: Of course we can...
KINSOLVING: You are? OK.
KOTMAIR: Of course, there's no law against that. There's no law at all! I'd like...
KINSOLVING: Not even practicing...
KOTMAIR: Let me say one thing, Les. I'm going to invite Mr. Brown right now to come to our Fellowship, like I did -- like I've done Dominic Lopenzino, everybody in Baltimore IRS, Washington DC IRS; make a live-time video with us, not edited, showing where we're wrong in what we're saying. I invite him. I dare him!
BROWN: Now, I accept...
KOTMAIR: An open invitation, Mr. Brown, come on down here and show where the "bucket of poison..."
BROWN: I care about the people who are, get creamed by the IRS, by listening to advice...
KOTMAIR: (exasperated) You, you sound like a worn-out record!
BROWN: (in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: You sound like a worn-out record! I'd like, I'd like you to tell me how many categories of taxation that are in those subtitles.
BROWN: (laughter)
KOTMAIR: Do you know?!
BROWN: (laughing) Are you trying to be funny?
KOTMAIR: (angrily) No, I'm not trying to be funny! I'm trying to find out how much knowledge you have about the law, because I get into the IRS and I find out they don't have any knowledge of the law!
KINSOLVING: (incredulous) The IRS doesn't know anything about the law?
KOTMAIR: That's right.
KINSOLVING: (sneeringly) Ooh.
KOTMAIR: That's totally correct.
KINSOLVING: (mockingly) Good heavens.
KOTMAIR: ...I doubt if he knows. Right now, let's give him a test right now, Les, and see what he does know. How many categories of taxation are there in those subtitles, Mr. Brown?
BROWN: Les, Les... (mumbles)
KOTMAIR: Come on Mr. Brown, let me hear what you have to say!
BROWN: ...see, he wants to get off the topic...
KOTMAIR: We're not "getting off" anything, let's get to the law!
BROWN: ...counsel and give advice to...
KOTMAIR: Let's talk about the Internal Revenue Code! ...
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Let him... Hey, hey -- John, easy.
KOTMAIR: (angrily) I'm tired of these charlatans!
BROWN: ...you know, it's, uh, I'm unimportant in this, and how many fingers on my feet, you know, that's just, I mean...
KOTMAIR: (exasperated) Oh, God...
BROWN: ...these questions are silliness.
KOTMAIR: Let's talk about facts, Mr. Brown.
BROWN: What is serious, Les, what is serious, was very serious, that there are very gullible Americans who believe, after reading information...
KOTMAIR: (fumes)
BROWN: ...from people like him. I don't know specifics, I've never read their materials...
KOTMAIR: Mr. Brown, can you tell me where you...
KINSOLVING: All right, wait a minute! We gotta break! We've gotta break! But we'll be back on Two-Way Radio...
KINSOLVING: And let's go right to the calls, we're going to Essex and welcome Rick. Rick, you're on with Mr. Kotmair and Mr. Brown.
CALLER: Hi, Mr. Kotmair, how are you?
KOTMAIR: OK, Rick.
CALLER: You know, this gentlemen doesn't even know the tax laws, like most of the government officials. Don't know the laws that they pass upon the citizens. I would like to ask you, Mr. Kotmair, has the tax thing ever been ratified by the states?
KOTMAIR: Has the what?
CALLER: Has the 16th Amendment ever been ratified by the states?
KOTMAIR: Well, all I know about that is that a lawyer by the name of Lowell Becraft, an ex-revenue official from Illinois by the name of Bill Benson, and a rancher from Montana named Red Beckman traveled to every state back in the early '80s and went to their archives, and dug out their ratification on the 16th Amendment and got certified copies. And when it was all tallied the Amendment failed according those state records.
CALLER: Now last week we have a chief inspector of the Internal Revenue Service resign his position because he was taking property from the people. And he went to the head of the, uh, the Treasury Department and asked the Secretary for documents to see where he could take property away from individuals. And this is the first man that would resign, oh, he's got 18 years in there, and I think he's holding a meeting down in California this weekend. Have you heard about that case, sir?
KOTMAIR: You mean Joe Bannister, who was a CID agent.
CALLER: Yes, sir.
KOTMAIR: Well, you know, the point being is everybody knows the IRS goes around seizing property and putting people on the street. I mean, that's nothing new. We concede to that. What we want to do is find out about the law.
CALLER: (inaudible)
KOTMAIR: Mr. Brown talked a little bit ago about sources, I'd like to ask him where you find the sources in the Internal Revenue Code, I'll bet you he don't even know.
CALLER: Uh, he don't. Uh, Mr. Brown…
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute! Wait a minute, Rick, let him answer!
CALLER: No, he don't know nothing about…
KINSOLVING: Would you SHUT UP, Rick, just shut up!
CALLER: (laughter)
KINSOLVING: Go ahead, Alvin.
BROWN: Congress writes tax law, and uh, it's in the form of Internal Revenue Code. Also…
KOTMAIR: Where, where…
BROWN: I'm answering the question.
KOTMAIR: All right, go ahead.
BROWN: They also give, uh, Treasury the power to write regulations to apply the law or write specific rules interpreting the law.
KOTMAIR: Uh huh.
BROWN: And that, uh (multiple voices, inaudible) …that authority to Treasury is re-delegated to the IRS, who is, uh, … (multiple voices, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: …in the Internal Revenue Code, can you tell me?
BROWN: Pardon me?
KOTMAIR: Where do you find the sources listed within the Internal Revenue Code, can you tell me?
BROWN: Uh, uh, are you...
KOTMAIR: The sources, all the sources are listed in the Internal Revenue Code, can you tell me where to find that? Do you know?
BROWN: ...the sources of the Internal Revenue Code, well Congress...
KOTMAIR: Sources of income, they're all listed in the Internal Revenue Code...
KINSOLVING: Let him answer, let him answer! Go ahead Alvin, go ahead Alvin, answer.
BROWN: The Internal Revenue Code is nothing but a compilation of the law passed by Congress...
KOTMAIR: Of course, and it's an Act of Congress, now where do you find those sources that are listed in it? Do you know?
BROWN: Well, Congress writes law...
KOTMAIR: I understand they write law! We all know the Internal Revenue Code is Congress' law! Now tell me where you find the sources within that Code.
BROWN: Is your argument that the Internal Revenue Code is not law?
KOTMAIR: No, I'm arguing that it is law! I'm just showing that you don't know anything about it, that's all I'm doing, I'm proving a point!
BROWN: (inaudible)
KOTMAIR: You can't tell me where to find the sources, but I can tell you. It's in subchapter N and starts at section 861. Why didn't you know that?
BROWN: Well, uh, you know, it starts on page one. I mean, I don't know what your point is...
KOTMAIR: I'll bet you I know more about the law, why don't you come down and do a video...
BROWN: ... it ends on the last page.
KOTMAIR: ...I'll bet I know more about the law than you ever dreamt of.
BROWN: ...are you saying that Congress doesn't have the authority...
KOTMAIR: No! Congress does have the authority. I'm saying it's there.
KINSOLVING: Are you an attorney, John?
KOTMAIR: No, I'm not an attorney...
KINSOLVING: Why not?
KOTMAIR: ...I've been a police officer, I've been in law all my life. You don't need to be an attorney to understand the law, it's written in English...
KINSOLVING: Tell me a little about when were you a police officer?
KOTMAIR: I was a police officer back in '57 through '65.
KINSOLVING: Where?
KOTMAIR: In Baltimore.
KINSOLVING: In Baltimore. OK, all right. Can you all stay a little bit longer?
KOTMAIR: Oh, yes, I can stay as long as you want.
KINSOLVING: Alvin? Alvin, can you stay?
BROWN: Yes.
KINSOLVING: All right, we'll be back, and we'll be going to George in Westminster, on Two-Way Radio, AM 680 WCBM...
KINSOLVING: This is WCBM's uninhibited Radio Free Maryland, the Les Kinsolving show, where we welcome dissent rather than having no place for it as on television, and where we do not heavily edit or delay your expressed views as they do in the newspapers... Alvin, anything you want to say before we go to further callers?
BROWN: No, and I want to thank you for giving everybody a heads-up here. Um, um, you know, what this gentleman is now talking about are the court cases that they lose. But these, uh, protest-type people lose. I mean, you can make any argument you want in the Internal Revenue Code, you know, and the courts are not going to ask you how many chapters are in the Code.
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
BROWN: The court, the court is going to know, um, you know, they're going to consider all the issues. Um, the courts are lately prone to calling a lot of these issues frivolous, and they've said this, they've said that we've addressed these issues so many times, so frequently, they are so frivolous, that we don't want to address them again. Uh, you know...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
BROWN: ...judgment against the taxpayer. These, these... This is not funny! This is not funny! Peoples' lives get ruined by this information, and other people make money from it. I don't know anything about your personal business affairs, so whether you do or don't is...
KOTMAIR: Well (clears throat)...
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute! Whoa! Whoa!
BROWN: I know that people make a lot of money selling this information to gullible Americans, and they rely on it, and they take issue with the IRS, and they litigate the issues and they lose.
KINSOLVING: OK, now John, it's your turn.
KOTMAIR: Well sure, Alvin. Now you just admitted you know nothing about what we do here, and yet you claim that we sell "buckets of poison."
BROWN: Yea, well, to the extent that you advise people that they...
KOTMAIR: What do I advise?
BROWN: ...that they don't have to pay their employment tax. I have about 20 clients, uh, who...
KOTMAIR: Alvin, Alvin...
BROWN: ...who have tax liability because...
KOTMAIR: We've been to court, Alvin, let's go through it. You opened the door. Employment taxes. Right? What are...
BROWN: There's, there's a lot of taxes, but you mentioned, uh, payroll, and, and there's a, there's a...
KOTMAIR: ...employment taxes...
BROWN: ...there's 100% penalty for...
KOTMAIR: What are employment taxes?
KINSOLVING: Now listen, let's wind it up because we've got a whole bunch of listeners, OK?
KOTMAIR: Well, I'd like him to tell me, he just talked about employment taxes, where do you find employment taxes in the Internal Revenue Code?
BROWN: You are changing the subject, and I'm, I'm challenging you to tell me...
KOTMAIR: You're challenging me to what?
BROWN: ...any cases... (fades)
KOTMAIR: It's fading, I can't hear him, what is he saying?
BROWN: ...they don't win these cases. Now you can, you can go through any kind of semantical exercise you want...
KOTMAIR: There's no semantical exercise, Alvin...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: ...Let's talk about the law!
KINSOLVING: All right, let's go to the calls. Let's go to... Whoa! Whoa! Let's go to George in Westminster. George, welcome to WCBM.
CALLER: Hi, Les. A great show. It's so entertaining to have someone as enlightened and informed about the law as Mr. Kotmair. I really respect him for his knowledge of the law, which this gentleman Mr. Alvin, uh, stated when Mr. Kotmair asked him about the law, he said "the law does not matter" quote. He said "the law was not an issue" quote. He said the law was "silly."
BROWN: I, I never, um, I'm sorry, you, you're taking something out of context, I don't recall saying that.
CALLER: We'll have to play the tap, tape...
BROWN: (laughter)
CALLER: ...that's exactly what you said. Now, sir...
BROWN: No...
CALLER: ...You're the expert, I've got a couple of questions.
BROWN: To the, to the contrary, the law is very important...
CALLER: Why don't you know where...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
BROWN: Pardon me?
CALLER: Why can't you cite simple, elementary tax law answers?
(multiple voices, inaudible)
BROWN: You, you're part of this group and you want, you want to discuss one word, one sentence or something, and I'm telling you Les, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of arguments that have been made about the Internal Revenue Code, but the focus ought to be on whether or not they take these perverse arguments and win with them. I think the issue ought to be, do you win these cases in court...
KOTMAIR: Alvin, what are the perverse arguments that we have made? We already won in court, Alvin. We won in court. And let me send you a transcript...
BROWN: (inaudible)
KOTMAIR: Hold on, Alvin let me say this...
BROWN: I have, on my web page I have... (continues in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: Alvin, let me say this, Alvin. Hold on. Alvin, let me say this. Hold on, Alvin! Let me say something right here. You've been talking, let me say something. I want to send you a transcript of my examining the Chief of Special Procedures Functions for IRS in Baltimore about computer codes, IRS computer codes in the federal district court in Baltimore. It's a joke! I got him to admit on the stand, he's the chief in charge of computer codes, and I got him to admit on the stand he knew nothing about 'em....
KINSOLVING: All right, let's go! Let's go! Let's go to Charlie in Boston, Massachusetts. Charlie, welcome to WCBM.
CALLER: (inaudible) ...I wanted to thank you very much for being on the line with us this evening. I'd like to go ahead and agree with Mr. Brown that there are many groups out there, for example "We the People" by Lynn Meredith and others that are not giving good advice. They go ahead and tell people to file zero returns and things like that. Mr. Kotmair's group, Save-A-Patriot, has been exactly on target, and for years now has been able to keep the IRS at bay with my own particular case. Mr. Brown, I'd like to simply ask you, what part of the Internal Revenue Code makes me -- a citizen living and working here in the United States not involved in alcohol, tobacco, or firearms -- liable that I have to file a return, sir.
BROWN: Well, I -- I read regulations on filing, I mean, Internal Revenue Code refers to filing...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
CALLER: ...the section that says I as a citizen, not working in a restricted occupation, that I must file?
BROWN: (long silence)
KOTMAIR: Where's it at, Alvin?
BROWN: (longer silence)
KOTMAIR: Where's the withholding of income tax at, Alvin? Do you know where that...?
BROWN: Let me, let me change the question, because this is, you know, it's a -- it's a trick, semantical question.
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Alvin -- go ahead, Alvin, answer.
BROWN: The question is -- but isn't, isn't the question, shouldn't the question be has anyone won on that argument?
KOTMAIR: What argument?
BROWN: Shouldn't that be the question? I mean, you can...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute! John -- John -- JOHN -- you must let him answer, John!
BROWN: (initially talking behind Kinsolving, inaudible) ...have you ever won on that argument. Now we've had the Internal -- I mean, hallelujah, tell all America today that there's a loophole in the Internal Revenue Code and nobody has to pay federal income taxes. Certainly if you're not a citizen, I mean, if you take your point to its logical conclusion that everybody listening to this show doesn't have to pay their federal income taxes, if that's where you're going, you know, that's silliness. I mean, this isn't going anywhere, you're teaching Americans to do this, they're going to be beaten up by the IRS...
KOTMAIR: Can I ask you a question? Where do you find the withholding of income... (continues talking behind Brown, inaudible)
BROWN: I don't want to get into a semantical issue with regard to the Internal Revenue code. It's just not, that's not, it's really can you prevail in the courts on the issue, and tell me where you have prevailed on making that argument.
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Now wait a minute, wait a minute John -- John, he asked you a question, where have you prevailed in the courts?
KOTMAIR: I just gave him an example, 1996 in Baltimore -- it's on our web page, go read the order.
BROWN: That's not the -- the matters that he was describing with respect to himself did not... (multiple voices, confusion)
KOTMAIR: ...It was a criminal allegation, Mr. Alvin Brown, a criminal allegation that I was not withholding, and I'm still not!
KINSOLVING: Well let me ask you this...
BROWN: ...The issue of the holding is different from the issue of paying.
KOTMAIR: Well why is it -- if I'm supposed to withhold within the law, where is the law?
BROWN: ...tax liability, you might have $300 in annual income and the rest comes to you under the table. I don't know anything about your life...
KOTMAIR: ...I don't withhold from the employees, why am I not doing that, Alvin?
BROWN: (Kotmair continues in background, inaudible) You're taking your own case, you know, you have control of all the facts... You're not addressing, I mean, the point on the table is whether Americans can interpret the Internal Revenue Code so that they don't have to pay federal income taxes.
KOTMAIR: (Brown continues in background, inaudible) You don't interpret the law, have you ever heard of the vagueness doctrine, Alvin? Let me read you from Black's Law Dictionary the vagueness doctrine.
BROWN: I'm sorry?
KOTMAIR: "Under this principle, a law which does not fairly inform a person of what is commanded or prohibited is unconstitutional and violative of due process." You have to be able to understand the law, Alvin, because if you can't understand the law you can't obey it. Laws are not interpreted. They're written in plain, clear English.
BROWN: ...What I can do for you is to give you citations of multiple cases...
KOTMAIR: I'm not talking about court cases, just talk about the Internal Revenue Code itself!
BROWN: ...I've started posting some of those cases on my web site.
KOTMAIR: Alvin, did you ever look at the Code section for the withholding of income tax?
BROWN: I'm sure I have, you know, I can't memorize if from, uh, you know...
KOTMAIR: Well, you want me to tell you where to find it? You find it in Chapter 3, there's Section 1441, withholding from non-resident aliens...
BROWN: Yeah, there is a code section...
KOTMAIR: ...1442, withholding from foreign corporations...
BROWN: Yes...
KOTMAIR: ...and 1443, withholding from foreign tax-exempt organizations.
BROWN: Yes, and there's section 61...
KOTMAIR: (in background, inaudible)
BROWN: ...Section 61 of the Internal Revenue Code says that you have to report, uh, all of your income. (continues in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: Where -- where do you find in Chapter 3 withholding from citizens, Alvin, can you find it?
BROWN: I don't want to argue about the Internal Revenue Code, I want to get an argument whether or not...
KOTMAIR: Alvin, where do you find the withholding of income tax in Chapter 3 from citizens, can you tell me what Code section?
BROWN: (silence)
KOTMAIR: It's not there! (continues behind Brown, inaudible)
BROWN: Uh, look. The question is, have the courts addressed that issue. The answer is they have addressed that issue. Now, I'm -- I'm not the Supreme Court, I'm not a circuit court, I'm not a district court.
KINSOLVING: Uh, John. John, I have one question, John. Are you acquainted with a man by the name of Thurston Bell?
KOTMAIR: Yes. I'm acquainted with Thurston Bell.
KINSOLVING: Did he work for you for three and a half years?
KOTMAIR: At one time Thurston worked here.
KINSOLVING: Right, he worked for you for three and a half years.
KOTMAIR: For three and a half years.
KINSOLVING: In other words, if you felt he was an inaccurate or dishonest employee, you would have fired him right away, wouldn't you?
KOTMAIR: (laughter) Thurston would do the work, but I would have to look at it before it left here.
KINSOLVING: I see.
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Whoa! Whoa! Wait a minute!
KOTMAIR: You asked me...
KINSOLVING: We're either going to, uh, hold on -- for three and a half years, he worked closely with you.
KOTMAIR: I have never, I wouldn't say "closely," he worked here, a lot of people work here. I have never found Thurston to be dishonest when it comes to money. (continues behind Kinsolving, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Well, that's good, all right now -- now, hold on. Hold on, hold on, hold on. He writes, when the IRS raided the, eh, Save-A-Patriot, SAP...
KOTMAIR: Right.
KINSOLVING: ...five years ago...
KOTMAIR: Right.
KINSOLVING: ...he says that they also raided your home.
KOTMAIR: That's correct.
KINSOLVING: And in your private safe, they removed over $40,000 of what was alleged by Mr. Kotmair to be Fellowship property. This is a sign...
KOTMAIR: (inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute! I haven't finished! This is a sign of someone not keeping arms-length from the organization, and in my mind I can understand why federal judge Marvin Garbis did not return the money to the Fellowship.
KOTMAIR: That's not so...
KINSOLVING: Oh, he did return it?
KOTMAIR: That's a misrepresentation of the facts, let me explain what happened...
KINSOLVING: I didn't, uh, you see I didn't write this because I've never worked for the Save-A-Patriot....
KOTMAIR: Thurston Bell is trying his best to destroy this organization...
KINSOLVING: He does?
KOTMAIR: ...If you go to the rest of it, he's been doing that for three years now.
KINSOLVING: Why does he want to destroy you?
KOTMAIR: Because he wants to take our place.
KINSOLVING: Oh, he does?
KOTMAIR: Yes. I mean, this is well known throughout the Patriot community. And it's well known on the Internet. He's called me all kinds of names, he's even said I had to be "removed." But, be that as it may, let me tell you what happened there...
KINSOLVING: He has a number of charges here...
KOTMAIR: Let me, let me tell you what happened there...
KINSOLVING: Ok, all right.
KOTMAIR: When it comes to property being taken by levy you have, uh, so long to file an action for its return. The IRS back-dated a levy, and when we got discovery in the case for the return of the property, we were starting to prove that when the court called off discovery and ruled that we were out of time on the levy, and that was it. That's totally different from what Mr. Thurston Bell tried to make it believed to be. It wasn't that way at all. It was ruled that we were out of time.
KINSOLVING: Do you have many enemies?
KOTMAIR: No, not that I know of.
KINSOLVING: This is the only one?
KOTMAIR: The only one that I -- well, I don't know if he's an actual enemy, he probably is just trying to remove us and destroy us like he said he was going to do when he left here.
KINSOLVING: OK, all right.
KOTMAIR: I don't know, uh...
KINSOLVING: We're going to break, but we'll be back, on Two-Way Radio AM 680 WCBM...
KINSOLVING: ...Let's go to Craig in Baltimore City. Craig, welcome to WCBM.
CALLER: Thank you. I hope you can hear me on the cell phone.
KINSOLVING: Yes.
CALLER: Uh, after listening to both sides here, it seems to me that the man that's been with the IRS for 30 years is not able to answer what the law and what the Code actually says. He, uh, alludes to a lot of invective, poisonous kind of statements by trying to make John Kotmair look like he doesn't know what he's doing, but John does know what he's doing. I've been to his meetings. He knows the Code inside and out, probably better than anybody on the IRS code. But adding to that I would just like to say, ask John, uh, you know anything about this guy "Steve," uh, up there in Colorado or wherever it is, uh, why he lost. Can you tell us how many cases you all have won, not including yourself, your own case, your own particular case, but other cases of your Patriot members. How many have lost, how many have won, and why do you lose, and why do you win.
KINSOLVING: OK, John, you're up.
CALLER: I'll hang up and listen.
KINSOLVING: All right, John? Go ahead, John!
KOTMAIR: I went to the administration department here at Save-A-Patriot and I asked him for the, uh, "Steve" from Colorado. And they couldn't come up with any "Steve" ever as a member from Colorado. So I don't know if it's fictitious or what. Quite possibly he could have used some other name, I don't know. But what is said there, if you read it carefully, uh, there's nothing wrong with what he said. Except for, it's in no way possible it could cost 10 or 15 thousand for our services. That's a real exaggeration.
KINSOLVING: How much do you charge for your services?
KOTMAIR: Well, we charge 35 for a request, or for a petition, or for a response; whatever the rules require to be done.
KINSOLVING: Um hmm.
KOTMAIR: What we're actually doing is, we're building prima facie cases of violation of due process because the IRS is not using the law, probably because they have no knowledge of it in their assessment procedures.
KINSOLVING: All right, Alvin, your response to that.
BROWN: It sounds like you're getting spammed here with some of these calls. Um, the, look... (inaudible)
KINSOLVING: You have to speak up Alvin!
BROWN: Les, let's assume that I'm the biggest tax dummy in the universe. Let's just go with that. Let's forget about my history as an interpretative tax lawyer and a skilled tax lawyer. Let's assume that I'm a dummy. Then I would simply ask you to look at the cases, which I've been asking these people to do. I read the cases. And anyone can read the cases, they're a matter of public record. And, I, uh, these people who make these frivolous semantical arguments lose them in the courts. There are always some unique, uh, arguments; this thing about the citizen, where in the code am I a citizen, that issue has been made, that argument has been made over and over and over and over again and the courts just rule against them.
KINSOLVING: All right...
BROWN: My...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
BROWN: ...My problem is, is uh, as a human, as an American is I feel very badly that I'm getting these people, that I'm getting help calls from people, help me with the problem, I owe two, three hundred thousand dollars to the IRS, they owe 50 thousand to the IRS, how can I get this tax liability down. And I proceed to help them get their tax liability down after they've been devastated. A lot of them have relied on information of the kind of argument we've heard tonight, and I know for a fact I have clients I can give you the names of who tell me they've spent three, four, five, six, seven thousand dollars, and....
KOTMAIR: Can you attribute that to the Save-A-Patriot, or is it from others?
BROWN: Uh, you know, there's more than one, it's, um, uh, I've heard the, uh, you know, I don't go investigate these, uh, these things. I just hear, uh, I've the, uh, Save-A-Patriot movement mentioned, and there's other names mentioned who are in this commercial business of selling this, this misinformation...
KINSOLVING: OK then, all right then, now John...
KOTMAIR: If he can't...
KINSOLVING: John! Wait a minute, John! It's your turn!
KOTMAIR: I say, he cannot attribute anything to us. We have not raised one "argument" here tonight. He's talking about raising -- we've never raised any argument...
BROWN: I'm talking about money. Uh, people...
KOTMAIR: All we're talking about...
BROWN: ...a lot of money...
KOTMAIR: Now, it's my turn. It's my turn.
BROWN: Yeah, go ahead.
KOTMAIR: Is it my turn?
BROWN: Enjoy.
KOTMAIR: All we've been talking about is the law. I made a 12-hour video, lecturing on the law called Just the Facts. Not one opinion in it. All we do is show the law. Every attorney that's seen that has come here and said "you're totally correct." We had one attorney in, uh -- who's now a member -- from Shrevesport, Louisiana, who kept telling this member down there, these are a bunch of kooks; he was talking just like Alvin was, and the member kept saying to him "just watch the videos." So finally, after two years of persistent invitation to watch the videos, he did. And he called me up afterwards and says "You've taught me more in those 12 hours than I learned four years in law school." We have two attorneys coming this weekend, who just watched the videos...
BROWN: You know, you oughta...
KOTMAIR: Hold on! ...
KINSOLVING: Yes, John's turn, it's John's turn.
KOTMAIR: ...One in Minnesota and one in Ohio, coming here to have a meeting this weekend just to meet me and talk, congratulate me on those videos about the law. All we talk about is the law. We don't give any fallacious arguments. Just the law. We don't advocate people do anything. We have never advocated people do anything. All we do is teach the law.
BROWN: And you, do you sell...
KOTMAIR: You don't know what we do, Alvin.
BROWN: (inaudible)
KOTMAIR: What's that?
BROWN: Do you sell the video?
KOTMAIR: Well, sure. The videos are educational material. Of course we sell them, but it doesn't advocate anything, it just shows the law.
BROWN: You're trying to make money off of Les' audience by, by, you know... (continues in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: I'm not making money off of Les' audience. All I'm doing is telling you factual things, we have not raised one argument.
KINSOLVING: Yeah, I think, wait a minute, whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hold on. I think this, John as I understand it you've got a radio network or something, haven't you?
KOTMAIR: Well, there's a Liberty Works Radio Network in which I'm involved in.
KINSOLVING: I see.
KOTMAIR: Right, right.
KINSOLVING: Is that tax exempt?
KOTMAIR: No, no! No, we're not tax exempt, 501(c)(3)'s are for foreign entities. Look in the law!
KINSOLVING: I see.
BROWN: It's not true.
KOTMAIR: (inaudible, in background)
KINSOLVING: No, it isn't. There are a lot of domestic entities; churches, synagogues. Oh sure, I know that.
KOTMAIR: ...the law requires...
KINSOLVING: The law requires that if you want to be tax-exempt as a church, you will file under 501(c)(3).
KOTMAIR: Where do you find that?
KINSOLVING: I find that in the Internal Revenue Code!
KOTMAIR: Where at? Where?
KINSOLVING: I've been dealing with that for years. I am not a tax attorney, but, uh, that's what you do.
KOTMAIR: Can you tell me, Les.... (continues in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: You'll find almost every church and synagogue -- hey, hey, hey! Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait. Every church and synagogue and mosque and... Would you, uh, John. John, we really want to have a free expression, but we must try to, uh, see, under 501(c)(3) I have filed on behalf of numerous churches...
KOTMAIR: Well, you might have, Les, but you don't know the law that requires it, do you?
KINSOLVING: What, what, what?
KOTMAIR: You don't even know the law that requires it!
KINSOLVING: I do. I do know.
KOTMAIR: Where is it?
KINSOLVING: The law is the Internal Revenue Code.
KOTMAIR: Where? Where in the Code?
KINSOLVING: I have not memorized, the uh...
KOTMAIR: There's all kinds of sections in there that do different things....
KINSOLVING: I can assure you that it's there. I'm ASSURING you that it's there.
KOTMAIR: You're assuring me? No, you show me!
KINSOLVING: Could you, could you tell me the scatological implications of post-Maccabean apocalypse, John?
KOTMAIR: I know nothing about that.
KINSOLVING: You know nothing about it!! Why don't you know something about it, John?
KOTMAIR: Well you, you might know about that, but I know... (continues in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Oh! That's right! That's right. Well, I have not memorized the IRS Code, but I know it's there. I know it's there, I've been covering it for years, my friend. All right, let's go to Todd -- Whoa! Whoa! HOLD IT! HOLD IT! Let's go to Todd in Hampstead. Todd, welcome to this, uh, "gentle" discussion.
CALLER: Mr. Brown, you've hung in there a lot longer than I expected than anybody would, and it's been quite interesting. But, Mr. Brown, I just want to confirm a couple of things before I make a few statements. Um, your background is with the IRS, is that correct?
BROWN: That is correct.
CALLER: OK. Um, it's obvious as a listener, and I'm no attorney, no tax expert; it's obvious that you cannot, you personally have not been able to give some evidence of your specific knowledge of certain tax codes. And hey, I'm not knocking you for that, OK?
BROWN: There's only one tax code, but...
CALLER: Of any code section. I'm sorry, I didn't mean tax codes, yes I realize there is only one tax code.
BROWN: We just heard John say that Internal Revenue Code 510(c)(3) only applies to foreign...
CALLER: Let me finish. I know you guys are kind of hung up on that.
BROWN: He's totally wrong, but that's OK...
CALLER: I don't want to -- let me talk, please! What I want to make a point of is that you've made it very clear, and I commend you for this, as you pointed out there is a serious problem because you're getting a lot of phone calls about people that are in trouble. I assert that the problem is because there have been misapplications of the law, not because what Mr. Kotmair asserts is incorrect, or he is doing something, uh, illegal. What -- what I, my take on from what you've said is that there is a tremendous problem with the court cases that you've seen. I think that Mr. Kotmair would agree that there is a tremendous problem with people coming out on the losing end. Not because they weren't right. Not because they weren't obeying the law. Just because of the certain circumstances that have taken place. I would also like to say that a lot of times when a case develops it is dropped before it gets to a point where there is an outcome in that case, because the IRS feels they don't have a significant chance of winning. Would you agree that that happens very often as well?
BROWN: Not on these kinds of, uh, protester issues. They will never drop a protester issue.
CALLER: Well, I think you're saying that some things are "protester issues" more than what they really might be, which is just someone who doesn't feel they have an obligation to do certain things according to the law, and not necessarily because of a protest. As I understand it a "tax protester" is a specifically defined activity, uh, in the code. Would you agree with that? Things that make one a legally defined "tax protester."
BROWN: I hate to talk in generalities. But if you're saying that, uh, if -- I'm speaking to the issue where people are advised they don't have to pay federal income taxes.
CALLER: Well, I'm...
BROWN: I mean, I think that's really disgusting to tell people that.
CALLER: I think what -- I think what the true issue is there are people who are being told what the laws are, they're being taught what the laws are, and they seem to make up their own mind. Now, whether or not their position is that they end up getting prosecuted or get in trouble because of something that happens to them after that, that is very unfortunate. And unfortunately, people are injured. Citizens are damaged and injured financially as well as, you know, in every other way you can imagine. That doesn't mean it's wrong for a person to try to live according to the law, if they are living according to the law. The problem really is that there is misapplication of the law and people are being damaged unfairly, illegally, and I think that's what Mr. Kotmair's group has been trying to make people aware of.
KINSOLVING: All right, on that we have to break, or I will be pounded. On Two-Way Radio, AM 680 WCBM...
KINSOLVING: Let's go right to the phones, to our Internet audience, to Kentucky, and welcome Steve to WCBM. Steve?
CALLER: Hi.
KINSOLVING: Hi.
CALLER: Can you hear me all right?
KINSOLVING: I can hear you fine.
CALLER: OK. Um, are you -- I'm on the air, I guess.
KINSOLVING: You're on the air.
CALLER: All right. Yeah. Uh, I worked for Mr. Kotmair for a few months in, uh, I tell you about a little less than a year, during the raid time when, uh, when he was raided. And, uh, at that time I looked up, I looked highly at, uh, Mr. Kotmair. I spoke highly of him and I, uh, I respected him highly as someone who, uh, embraced the truth. And, uh, as a, as an -- I realize that a lot of his, what he was saying was, had many holes in it. I felt that he didn't have the full documentation. So, I went into the archives and tried to bring up information, national archives, treasury archives, library of Congress; their very extensive research of the committee reports on Social Security...
KOTMAIR: Steve DeLuca...
CALLER: ...and because I feel...
KOTMAIR: (in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Let him finish!
CALLER: Pardon?
KINSOLVING: Let him finish, John!
KOTMAIR: I'm not -- I'm not...
KINSOLVING: Pot him down, pot him down!
CALLER: ...I brought Mr. Kotmair, um, my information, uh, about the, uh, basis of his statements that Americans are, uh, that, that, you know, the direct tax clauses in the Constitution, he, they pretty much base their claim on the Pollack case of 1895, where, uh, income tax was declared unconstitutional. Which was an erroneous decision, it was corrected by the 16th Amendment...
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
CALLER: However, and it was pushed by the middle class by the way, the 16th Amendment (inaudible) because the tax was being levied on the middle class. The income tax, originally the legislative intent was that the tax was a tax on the rich, the super-rich...
KINSOLVING: OK.
CALLER: ...billionaires.
KINSOLVING: Go ahead, Steve.
CALLER: Anyway, I brought this stuff to, uh, Mr. Kotmair and he said that he didn't care that the Pollack decision was wrong, he simply said "it works for us." Which means to me...
KOTMAIR: That's a lie! That's a bald-faced lie..
KINSOLVING: Now wait a minute! Uh, Brian, Brian, Brian...
KOTMAIR: ...I didn't say that at all. You're a liar.
KINSOLVING: ...pot it down. All right, go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead, Steve.
CALLER: ...Now he wants, now he wants to attack with invective... (continues in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: No invective at all, I said that statement you made is a lie.
CALLER: I'll tell you right here and now, I went to your house and the first...
KOTMAIR: I told you...
KINSOLVING: Now let him finish! Let him finish.
CALLER: I -- I presented him 55 rare, original documents. Most of them haven't been seen by the eyes of people since, for 60 years...
KOTMAIR: Did -- Steve, did Larry Becraft the attorney agree with you?
CALLER: ...and the first document that he looked at, he read it and he ordered me out of his house... (continues in background, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: Steve, you're not telling the whole story.
CALLER: ...and he invited me in, he said...
KOTMAIR: Steve, you're not telling...
CALLER: (continues in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Why don't you let him finish and let us here the whole story, John! Come on, John, do you want free or, uh, come on, let him speak.
KOTMAIR: OK, let him finish and I'll rebut him.
KINSOLVING: That's fine, let him finish. Go ahead, Steve, are you finished?
CALLER: I'm not finished, I'll tell you right now, there's a $10,000 challenge. Every fact in there is wrong, and, and, any other fact of history, some basic facts of history that he puts in there is, uh, is a misrepresentation due to its contextual association. If you look at the, his circular he's been handing around for 15 years, he's told me when I told him the statements of fact and you'd better be careful because I can prove a couple of those statements of fact. He said, statements, if the IRS can play word games so can I. In other words, this is just an advertising gimmick...
KOTMAIR: That's another lie...
CALLER: I intend to prove it all wrong, and I'll put it before the, uh, on the altar of public opinion. And I'll do it on the radio, wherever you want to do it Mr. Kotmair. Your first comment, your first paragraph, you know, sets the -- sets the, uh, basis for your $10,000 claim. You state...
KOTMAIR: All right, let me rebut him.
CALLER: You say, you say you have conclusive proof that the following facts...
KOTMAIR: Let me rebut him.
KINSOLVING: Wind it up. Wind it up, Steve, and then we'll go to John.
CALLER: ...American citizens of permanent residence living and working within the United States of the Union are not subject to the filing of an IRS form 1040 and are not liable. That's a total false statement, I will prove him wrong, I will prove him wrong indisputably, right in front and I have 100% authenticated documents to prove it in every aspect of the law from 1913 on, and I go all the way back to England, to the beginning of the income tax under king George III -- the enemy, so-called enemy of the patri... of the founding fathers. Actually, they adopted his tax. They were gonna adopt the income tax in 1815 during the War of 1812...
KINSOLVING: All right, Steve...
KOTMAIR: (in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hold on! Hold on! Now, Steve, I want you to be sure -- first of all, Steve, did I in any way get in touch with you before this broadcast?
CALLER: No, you didn't.
KOTMAIR: No, he didn't have to. Steve's a friend of Thurston Bell. But be that as it may... (continues in background, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: All right... I didn't get in touch with Thurston Bell either, but... Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Will you leave your number, because maybe I think we really ought to have a return thing. Leave your number, Steve, where we can reach you. I'm sure, John, you'd be delighted to take on Steve, wouldn't you?
KOTMAIR: I'd love him to come here, because, you know, Steve is way out in left field.
CALLER: Yeah, I'd love to see this.
KOTMAIR: All right, you can come make a video, Steve...
KINSOLVING: All right, now -- now it is John's turn to rebut.
CALLER: ...have $10,000 with you.
KOTMAIR: All right.
KINSOLVING: John, and it's your time to rebut.
KOTMAIR: What Steve put together there would take about four hours to explain, so you can't get into that.
CALLER: He didn't even look at it!
KOTMAIR: Now, when Steve came to my house just a week or so ago, he came up there and he walked over to the outside, to the door, and I answered the door, and he says "I have evidence here that Larry Becraft is a traitor!" Larry Becraft is an attorney in Huntsville, Alabama.
CALLER: Liar.
KOTMAIR: And I said...
CALLER: Liar.
KOTMAIR: Liar!? My wife heard you! And then...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KOTMAIR: Hold on! Hold on!
CALLER: Larry Becraft is a traitor, you're damned right he is!
KOTMAIR: Hold on!
CALLER: And I'll take him on with you, I want him to be there!
KOTMAIR: (laughter)
KINSOLVING: I think this'll be a...
(multiple voices, inaudible)
KINSOLVING: ...I think this'll be a very stimulating thing. Now, Steve, you leave your, uh, number, and we know how to reach John. And we have to break, but we'll be right back on Two-Way Radio, AM 680 WCBM...
KINSOLVING: Let's go right to the calls, we're going to our Internet line again to Ted in North Carolina. Where in North Carolina, Ted?
CALLER: I'd like to ask Mr. Brown a question.
KINSOLVING: Where in North Carolina?
CALLER: In the central part.
KINSOLVING: Well, what part, I mean what's the town?
CALLER: Greensboro.
KINSOLVING: Greensboro! Sure, big town! Go ahead!
CALLER: Mr. Brown, you seem to be very fond of the term "tax protester." That term is defined in the Code, I'm wondering if you know the definition.
BROWN: Look, I, uh -- I don't care what label you want to put on it. There are people who, who, uh, who decide that they want to take their own spin on the Internal Revenue Code, and the Constitution, and the laws of the United States...
KINSOLVING: Can you speak up, Alvin?
BROWN: They do that for their own purposes. Now that's OK, every American can do that. You can do anything you want to do voluntarily, including standing in front of a freight train. Now if somebody wants to stand on track, the railroad track and get run over by a freight train, they can do that...
KINSOLVING: All right, let's go to, uh, let's go to Denny in Havre De Grace. Denny, welcome to WCBM. Denny? Denny? (strange noises) Let's go to Maureen in Catonsville. Maureen?
CALLER: Hi!
KINSOLVING: Hi!
CALLER: Listen, I've been, you know, I was hoping to get some really good information tonight, but I'm rather confused, because John keeps, you know, Alvin... I'm sorry I'm going by first names, but I don't know...
KINSOLVING: That's all right.
CALLER: ...but, um -- Alvin, you know, seems to have been a former IRS man, and yet he seems not to be able to answer John's questions about the Code. And I was really hoping to get some answers on this. And, you know, he's talking about he's got clients here and he's got clients there. And yet if he can't answer a basic question, how can he help his clients? You know, I just don't know...
KINSOLVING: All right, let him answer -- that's a question, go ahead, Alvin.
BROWN: You misunderstand me...
KINSOLVING: Speak up, Alvin!
BROWN: Uh, you misunderstand me. I will stipulate anything you want about the knowledge of the Internal Revenue Code, uh, or the tax regulations. The Internal Revenue Code is in two volumes right now that I have from Commerce Clearing House. And I have regulations that are five volumes of regulations Internal Revenue Code. Um, frankly, there's not a single person in this country that can tell you sentence for sentence, word for word, the meaning of anything there...
KINSOLVING: Except John! Except John!
KOTMAIR: No, that's not what...
BROWN: I think I'm a very good...
KOTMAIR: That was a slam!
KINSOLVING: No, I thought you...
KOTMAIR: It was a slam! There's no other way...
KINSOLVING: Why? What do you mean it's a slam? I wondered if you knew all of these things. Can you answer any question about what's located where in the IRS code?
KOTMAIR: ...I know the Code sections and what they say that are pertinent to our subject matter.
KINSOLVING: Listen, John, we'll get you back! We'll get you back, it'll be fun.
[END OF PROGRAM]
Note that during this program, Mr. Brown went so far as to ridicule the very idea of knowing where in the Internal Revenue Code such requirements might be found. Of course, he misses the point entirely. "What page" these items would be found on is irrelevant. What is relevant is that when one attempts to locate such sections they are nowhere to be found!
This is a very common phenomenon amongst even the most seasoned "tax professionals." They spend their entire professional lives assuming that federal income tax liability and requirements for U.S. citizens exist in the Code, and concentrate only on misapplying the remaining morass of statutes and regulations. Their views are built on a foundation of quicksand.
In addition, Mr. Brown seems fond of practicing "guilt by association." Despite his vitriolic remarks about SAPF "selling buckets of poison," he openly admits to not knowing anything about the Fellowship's research, positions, or teachings. But because there clearly are people making frivolous arguments in this area of the law, he assumes that anyone who challenges "what everyone knows" is a charlatan.
It was also quite evident that Mr. Brown is only concerned with court decisions, and does not really care what the law itself might have to say. As the saying goes, "One judge lies and the next one swears to it!" Brown seems to have no problems with this. As with most people in his profession, and even the public at large, he is incapable of making the intuitive leap required to realize that many of the "court decisions" he is so fond of are made in contradistinction to the law because we are suffering under a corrupt judiciary.
This is truly a situation worthy of the old fable, "The Emperor Has No Clothes." "Everyone knows" the Emperor wears the most elegant finery. Few have the ability to recognize that he actually wears nothing at all.